Thursday, January 31, 2013

Neils Bullshit

Our 51st through 55th new buses this year are some of the most technologically advanced hybrid buses out there. I joined in a great event at PCC Cascades Campus with Campus President Gatewood, Multnomah County Commissioner Loretta Smith, and Carmen Rubio of the Latino Network to launch the new buses into service.(I bet those people ride the buses all the time, NOT)
The buses will be assigned to line 72 – where their lower emissions and less noise will have real noticeable benefits.(why would they have any more effect on this line then any other line?)  The buses came to us via a $2.5 million grant from the Federal Transit Administration.

These buses are really different from our past hybrids. First, the diesel engine doesn’t power the bus. The diesel engine powers a generator that charges batteries and then an electric motor drives the bus – kind of like the Chevy Volt. (Chevy volt here) This allows the diesel engine to be a bit smaller and tuned specifically for the generator – thus reducing both noise and emissions.

Inside and out they look great – as do all our new 3000 series. The operator who brought the bus to the event told me how much she liked it. She deployed the lift for a customer using a large wheelchair and proved to the customer that fixed route will work for him. She told me the visibility was great, improved particularly on the left side. (hahaha, freaking hilarious KGW report on safety and the new buses)
We’ll see how these buses do now once put in service. We’ll be tracking fuel economy and reliability – and we hope to learn a lot. I’m glad TriMet is piloting this new technology. (you're not piloting this new technology, its been out for awhile and other transit districts are much more developed than Trimet is) Through this hybrid demonstration grant, with the help of the FTA, we’ll see the bus of the future appear!



Erik H. said...

If TriMet is "piloting" the technology, then what the hell is C-Tran doing with IDENTICAL buses having been in service for, what, three or four years now, in daily service throughout Vancouver and even on their express runs into downtown Portland?

What is King County doing, with over 400 hybrids in service (from multiple manufacturers)? Coast Mountain? NYCMTA? San Francisco MUNI? Must I go on?

punkrawker4783 said...

Erik....we have 400 60' (New Flyer) hybrids AND 200 40' (Orion) Hybrids, so make that 600! ;) (Add in STs Hybrids we run for them you can add 52 to that). Everett Transit even has a couple of the Gillig Hybrids, and ST just added 22 to their fleet operated by Pierce Transit, who also just got a couple in their own fleet.

I also like to add, Community Transit, who canned Sunday Service over budget cuts, also has about 25 new buses, half of which were hybrids, all are New Flyers most recent design, the Excelsior. They also have on order new 60' coaches. MUNI just ordered 45 of the Excelsiors, hybrid, due in later this year.

TriMet is clearly LAST in adopting this.

Jason McHuff said...

Are we sure the technology is the same? Are the Seattle-area ones series series and not parallel (meaning the diesel engine just recharges the electric motor and doesn't provide any traction)?

Nedwell said...

Jason- Are you saying that Trimet's 4 Gillig Hybrid's are some new, cutting edge hybrids, somehow different and better than the C-Tran Gillig hybrids or the 2 New Flyer hybrids that Trimet's had for a bunch of years?

Erik H. said...

Jason, if you even knew anything about Seattle's buses you'd realize your argument is nothing more than your typical "I hate Erik" bullshit.

Metro's buses can run off the battery - since they cannot run in diesel mode in the DSTT.

But since you're too stupid to Google it yourself (because you think you're a know-it-all and only I have to prove myself), let's look at this website, from close to ten years ago:

After an initial successful test of one hybrid artic, Metro purchased a fleet of these buses from New Flyer of America in 2004 to replace the Breda dual power buses operating on tunnel routes.

These buses are based on the standard New Flyer low floor artic, but have an Allison parallel hybrid drive system instead of a conventional automatic transmission. The Allison system consists of the hybrid drive unit containing two electric motors/generators, planetary gears and clutches, a roof-mounted battery pack, an inverter, and a system controller. The hybrid buses delivered in 2002 and 2004 have Caterpillar C9 diesel engines. The hybrid buses delivered in 2008 have Cummins ISL diesel engines.

The parallel nature of the Allison system means that at low speed the bus is largely electrically driven, while at medium speeds it is a blend of mechanical and electric, and at high speeds it is mostly mechanical. Electric power is provided by the battery pack, and this is charged by the hybrid drive motors acting as generators while the bus is decelerating or braking. Use of the hybrid drive improves fuel economy compared to straight diesel, and reduces emissions because the electric drive is taking over part of the propulsion duties of the diesel engine.

But wait, what did it say?

The parallel nature of the Allison system means that at low speed the bus is largely electrically driven

Voila. So once again you're defending TriMet of some "innovative new technology" when the exact same technology has been in daily revenue service for nine years up in Seattle.

Next time, when you feel like going on your "I hate Erik" banter, why don't you stop typing, and Google it.

Max said...

Erik, you need to do your research. TriMet says:

"The buses have no mechanical link between the diesel engine and the vehicle’s tires."

That's clearly not the case in Seattle, which according to your post above
"at low speed the bus is largely electrically driven, while at medium speeds it is a blend of mechanical and electric, and at high speeds it is mostly mechanical"

You also said that "they cannot run in diesel mode in the DSTT", and that's false. There are restrictions on running in diesel mode, and there certainly is a lot of technology to minimize it, but it's clear that they are not running 100% electric in the tunnel. --

"When the bus stops at a station and the doors are opened, the diesel is not motored and everything stops. When the doors are closed, motoring begins and continues until the bus reaches 15 mph. The engine is then fueled and operated at reduced power. This sequence happens at every station. At the end of the tunnel, the bus changes out of hush mode automatically."


Max said...

BTW: I'd also like to point out that in your post) you called Jason "stupid" and a "know it all", and you referred to his post as "bullshit".

... and yet Jason made no statement directed towards you at all - just asked questions.

Jason McHuff said...

The bottom line is that it's clear that Seattle's (and others) hybrid buses have been parallel (both diesel and electric engines directly providing power), while TriMet has stated the new ones are series (diesel engine just charges the batteries).

Jason McHuff said...

My comment over there:

First of all, the Hawthorne Bridge is out of the way for serving PSU, South Waterfront and, via the tram, OHSU. It also is lifted frequently and doesn't really have the space.

There is the bridge over Harbor Drive.

Not really avoidable given the adjacent elevation change and amount and speed of traffic on Harbor Drive.

There is the bridge over Powell Boulevard.

Not sure how you'd avoid it given that Powell is at a lower elevation, in addition to it being very busy and a state highway.

There is the bridge over the driveway to Union Pacific's Brooklyn Yard.

That was a mitigation for changing the truck routes in the area and getting trucks off of narrow streets.

There is the bridge over the ramp to Tacoma Street

I'm guessing it was a safety or ODOT requirement.

Maybe a good experiment would be to spend $200 million on the 12 line between Portland and Hollywood

I'm not sure how realistic that is since there's already very good service between those two places.

Since TriMet refuses to give bus service the IDENTICAL treatment Streetcar received

How much of Streetcar's "treatment" came from Portland and not TriMet?

Al M said...

Hybrid Buses

Al M said...

Transit Systems Are Turning to Hybrid Buses -

Max said...

Looks like Erik is not going to respond, so I will take this opportunity to remind everyone that while Erik said this:

Jason, if you even knew anything about Seattle's buses you'd realize your argument is nothing more than your typical "I hate Erik" bullshit.

... and this ...

But since you're too stupid to Google it yourself (because you think you're a know-it-all and only I have to prove myself)

... he was in fact wrong, and Jason was correct.

Al M said...

The fact is that Trimet attempting to exploit the fact that the FEDS gave them some money for a couple of buses that have some sort of weird technology does NOT put them on the forefront of bus technology.

TRIMET IS FULL OF SHIT, as usual, using its advanced propaganda machine to create another myth along with all the other myths that have been created by Portland

Max said...

Yes, TriMet is basically conducting an experiment with 4 busses that they paid 20% for. While I think they're pioneering in the sense that they're the first to put these busses in service, 4 busses certainly doesn't make the agency very "green" in general.

It will be interesting to see whether this experiment works or not. It could be that these busses don't work well at all and it's a big failure. We'll see!

Al M said...