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Trimess
Thursday, March 6, 2014
Traffic Jam at Harrison & 4th
8 comments:
Anonymous
said...
No rebuttal from Max or Jason? Erik is right, once again.
This is one of those situations where TriMet's route planners are in the wrong, but of course they don't get the blame - it's the Operator who can't get through the intersection and is forced to either go and block the intersection, or simply not go at all.
No bus route should have ever been routed up Harrison - PERIOD. It's a lousy street for buses. It's narrow, there are no good stop locations (the ones to the east of here can't even be made ADA compliant), and buses turning on/off of 5th and 6th have to deal with significant pedestrian traffic. Isn't TriMet already in hot water for turning conflicts?
Each of these bus lines can easily be re-routed onto Barbur, Broadway, and a straight-on/off onto 6th and off 5th, which would be faster, safer, more efficient, and fewer pedestrian conflicts. Of course, TriMet in its infinite wisdom decided that PSU only needed one bus stop when it took the existing bus stops between Harrison and Montgomery and turned them into MAX stops, forcing northbound buses to have to drive clear through the PSU campus before making a stop.
And while TriMet's argument was to speed up buses and trains by having stops spaced four blocks apart, TriMet threw that out the window when they built two brand new, and totally unnecessary, MAX stops, just two blocks south of the Urban Center...
Routing all buses up Barbur would miss many stops, including ones at NCNM, near Riverplace and in the high rise residential area in the South Auditorium district.
Plus, Harrison has been a bus route for a long time, and allows buses to better serve PSU and avoid the traffic streets of Market and Clay: http://gallery.transitq.com/v/trimet/j9gbor/3810495638_o.jpg.html
Routing all buses up Barbur would miss many stops, including ones at NCNM, near Riverplace and in the high rise residential area in the South Auditorium district.
The Naito segment serves exactly THREE stops. The "NCNM" stop is an extremely poorly designed, non-ADA complaint stop in an island without proper crosswalks, and is easily accessed by a three block way from Barbur Boulevard (thus being served by most of the rerouted buses) along with the 9/17/19 buses that use the frontage road to get to the Ross Island Bridge. No loss of service whatsoever.
The buses that use Harrison, DO NOT serve Riverplace; and besides there is plenty of service via the 35/36 and Portland Streetcar to Riverplace. No loss of service.
The "High rise residential area in the South Auditorium District" are still served by the Portland Streetcar, the future MAX line, and of course are a very short walk to the 5th/6th Avenue Transit Mall.
"Harrison has been a bus route for a long time"
Define "long time". I've worked in this district since 2003, and the buses were not always on Harrison in the last 11 years. Yes, Clay/Market have congestion issues - which is specifically why I stated to route the buses up Barbur.
Not to mention, Jason completely ignores all of the safety improvements such a routing would make; while ignoring all of the noncompliant bus stops that TriMet refuses to improve. And even better, NOBODY loses transit access.
It's more like 3 1/2, and doesn't it make sense to serve the institution directly? Moreover, Natio can be a much faster entrance to downtown.
along with the 9/17/19 buses that use the frontage road to get to the Ross Island Bridge
Those buses are going in a completely different direction.
The buses that use Harrison, DO NOT serve Riverplace
I was thinking that the northern stop on Naito was south of Harrison. But the stops at ~2nd are at minimum 4 blocks closer than one on 6th could be.
The "High rise residential area in the South Auditorium District" are still served
True, but those able to take the 54 or 56 get a shorter walk (and faster trip when the speed of Naito is considered).
Also, how would you reroute the 35 and 36 to keep them serving South Waterfront?
Define "long time"
I included a link to a 1986 map which shows service on Harrison.
ignoring all of the noncompliant bus stops that TriMet refuses to improve
At least some of the responsibility lies with the cities who should have sidewalks constructed. Even if a stop itself is "compliant", there still needs to be a way to get to/from it, and non-transit using pedestrians need the infrastructure.
That do not serve the island bus stops, that must cross frontage roads at grade.
It's more like 3 1/2, and doesn't it make sense to serve the institution directly? Moreover, Natio can be a much faster entrance to downtown.
Really? You're getting all pissy over 100 feet Jason? And you are the same guy that cried a river because you claimed Tigard High School had direct bus service. Seriously, you have once again gone to getting in a pissing match because you are Jason and can get pissy.
Those buses are going in a completely different direction.
What if the NCNM students need to go east? What if Tigard residents need to get to Oregon City? What if people on Hayden Island need to get to the airport? Now are you suggesting that every point in Portland must be directly served with buses that serve every other direct point?
I was thinking that the northern stop on Naito was south of Harrison. But the stops at ~2nd are at minimum 4 blocks closer than one on 6th could be.
In other words, once again you are making a ass out of yourself but can't bring yourself to actually admit I know what the hell I'm talking about. But, hey, you want to get into a pissing match because your pathetic little worthless life can't be bothered to do anything of useful significance.
True, but those able to take the 54 or 56 get a shorter walk (and faster trip when the speed of Naito is considered).
So would a direct stop in front of Tigard High School but you have no problem with them having to walk the equivalent of several blocks to get to their nearest bus stop. Hypocrite, aren't you?
I included a link to a 1986 map which shows service on Harrison.
And why were the buses routed off of Harrison? Because it was unsafe. And yet you fail to address that little issue.
At least some of the responsibility lies with the cities who should have sidewalks constructed. Even if a stop itself is "compliant", there still needs to be a way to get to/from it, and non-transit using pedestrians need the infrastructure.
And some of the responsibility lies with TriMet to ensure its riders' safety and that stops are accessible and usable. TriMet seems to have no problem accepting full responsibility of MAX/WES stops. But when it comes to bus stops you seem to find it OK for TriMet to have non-compliant bus stops, some 20 years after ADA has been passed into law.
The frontage street on the east side of Naito is minor. There is no need to cross the ramp roadway on the west side.
Really? You're getting all pissy over 100 feet Jason?
The "moreover" was meant to denote that the first part was minor. But unlike with Tigard HS, this stop is on a direct route that provides other benefits, too.
Those students probably would not use buses that travel on Harrison Street, and are therefore not relevant to the discussion.
Now are you suggesting that every point in Portland must be directly served with buses that serve every other direct point?
I am not at all.
In other words, once again you are making a ass out of yourself
My thought was incorrect and I acknowledged it. But it is true that a Naito routing provides a faster entrance to downtown and shorter walks to places east of 6th Avenue.
And why were the buses routed off of Harrison?
Are you sure that happened? For example, these maps from ~1997 shows Lines 40 and 43 on Harrison (Montgomery, of course, was removed between 5th and 6th) http://web.archive.org/web/19970717093501/http://www.trimet.org/schedule/r040.gif http://web.archive.org/web/19970717094034/http://www.trimet.org/schedule/r043.gif
you seem to find it OK for TriMet to have non-compliant bus stops
No, I believe that good pedestrian infrastructure (sidewalks, safe crossings, etc) serve as the base of highly-accessible stops, as a developed stop with a landing pad, etc is not useful if one can't get to/from it. That those things are needed regardless of transit and are out of TriMet's jurisdiction.
But it seems that TriMet is trying to do something about it: http://trimet.org/projects/pednetwork/index.htm
MAX/WES stops themselves, on the other hand, are in TriMet's right of way, receive outside funding for construction and are built as part of the larger project.
Lastly, while MAX/WES stops may be more accessible, there are a lot less of them per route mile.
8 comments:
No rebuttal from Max or Jason? Erik is right, once again.
This is one of those situations where TriMet's route planners are in the wrong, but of course they don't get the blame - it's the Operator who can't get through the intersection and is forced to either go and block the intersection, or simply not go at all.
No bus route should have ever been routed up Harrison - PERIOD. It's a lousy street for buses. It's narrow, there are no good stop locations (the ones to the east of here can't even be made ADA compliant), and buses turning on/off of 5th and 6th have to deal with significant pedestrian traffic. Isn't TriMet already in hot water for turning conflicts?
Each of these bus lines can easily be re-routed onto Barbur, Broadway, and a straight-on/off onto 6th and off 5th, which would be faster, safer, more efficient, and fewer pedestrian conflicts. Of course, TriMet in its infinite wisdom decided that PSU only needed one bus stop when it took the existing bus stops between Harrison and Montgomery and turned them into MAX stops, forcing northbound buses to have to drive clear through the PSU campus before making a stop.
And while TriMet's argument was to speed up buses and trains by having stops spaced four blocks apart, TriMet threw that out the window when they built two brand new, and totally unnecessary, MAX stops, just two blocks south of the Urban Center...
Sorry, just not interested in traffic jam youtube videos.
Routing all buses up Barbur would miss many stops, including ones at NCNM, near Riverplace and in the high rise residential area in the South Auditorium district.
Plus, Harrison has been a bus route for a long time, and allows buses to better serve PSU and avoid the traffic streets of Market and Clay: http://gallery.transitq.com/v/trimet/j9gbor/3810495638_o.jpg.html
Routing all buses up Barbur would miss many stops, including ones at NCNM, near Riverplace and in the high rise residential area in the South Auditorium district.
The Naito segment serves exactly THREE stops. The "NCNM" stop is an extremely poorly designed, non-ADA complaint stop in an island without proper crosswalks, and is easily accessed by a three block way from Barbur Boulevard (thus being served by most of the rerouted buses) along with the 9/17/19 buses that use the frontage road to get to the Ross Island Bridge. No loss of service whatsoever.
The buses that use Harrison, DO NOT serve Riverplace; and besides there is plenty of service via the 35/36 and Portland Streetcar to Riverplace. No loss of service.
The "High rise residential area in the South Auditorium District" are still served by the Portland Streetcar, the future MAX line, and of course are a very short walk to the 5th/6th Avenue Transit Mall.
"Harrison has been a bus route for a long time"
Define "long time". I've worked in this district since 2003, and the buses were not always on Harrison in the last 11 years. Yes, Clay/Market have congestion issues - which is specifically why I stated to route the buses up Barbur.
Not to mention, Jason completely ignores all of the safety improvements such a routing would make; while ignoring all of the noncompliant bus stops that TriMet refuses to improve. And even better, NOBODY loses transit access.
without proper crosswalks
There is pedestrian bridge right at the stop.
a three block way from Barbur Boulevard
It's more like 3 1/2, and doesn't it make sense to serve the institution directly? Moreover, Natio can be a much faster entrance to downtown.
along with the 9/17/19 buses that use the frontage road to get to the Ross Island Bridge
Those buses are going in a completely different direction.
The buses that use Harrison, DO NOT serve Riverplace
I was thinking that the northern stop on Naito was south of Harrison. But the stops at ~2nd are at minimum 4 blocks closer than one on 6th could be.
The "High rise residential area in the South Auditorium District" are still served
True, but those able to take the 54 or 56 get a shorter walk (and faster trip when the speed of Naito is considered).
Also, how would you reroute the 35 and 36 to keep them serving South Waterfront?
Define "long time"
I included a link to a 1986 map which shows service on Harrison.
ignoring all of the noncompliant bus stops that TriMet refuses to improve
At least some of the responsibility lies with the cities who should have sidewalks constructed. Even if a stop itself is "compliant", there still needs to be a way to get to/from it, and non-transit using pedestrians need the infrastructure.
There is pedestrian bridge right at the stop.
That do not serve the island bus stops, that must cross frontage roads at grade.
It's more like 3 1/2, and doesn't it make sense to serve the institution directly? Moreover, Natio can be a much faster entrance to downtown.
Really? You're getting all pissy over 100 feet Jason? And you are the same guy that cried a river because you claimed Tigard High School had direct bus service. Seriously, you have once again gone to getting in a pissing match because you are Jason and can get pissy.
Those buses are going in a completely different direction.
What if the NCNM students need to go east? What if Tigard residents need to get to Oregon City? What if people on Hayden Island need to get to the airport? Now are you suggesting that every point in Portland must be directly served with buses that serve every other direct point?
I was thinking that the northern stop on Naito was south of Harrison. But the stops at ~2nd are at minimum 4 blocks closer than one on 6th could be.
In other words, once again you are making a ass out of yourself but can't bring yourself to actually admit I know what the hell I'm talking about. But, hey, you want to get into a pissing match because your pathetic little worthless life can't be bothered to do anything of useful significance.
True, but those able to take the 54 or 56 get a shorter walk (and faster trip when the speed of Naito is considered).
So would a direct stop in front of Tigard High School but you have no problem with them having to walk the equivalent of several blocks to get to their nearest bus stop. Hypocrite, aren't you?
I included a link to a 1986 map which shows service on Harrison.
And why were the buses routed off of Harrison? Because it was unsafe. And yet you fail to address that little issue.
At least some of the responsibility lies with the cities who should have sidewalks constructed. Even if a stop itself is "compliant", there still needs to be a way to get to/from it, and non-transit using pedestrians need the infrastructure.
And some of the responsibility lies with TriMet to ensure its riders' safety and that stops are accessible and usable. TriMet seems to have no problem accepting full responsibility of MAX/WES stops. But when it comes to bus stops you seem to find it OK for TriMet to have non-compliant bus stops, some 20 years after ADA has been passed into law.
that must cross frontage roads at grade
The frontage street on the east side of Naito is minor. There is no need to cross the ramp roadway on the west side.
Really? You're getting all pissy over 100 feet Jason?
The "moreover" was meant to denote that the first part was minor. But unlike with Tigard HS, this stop is on a direct route that provides other benefits, too.
Plus, NCNM provides passes:
http://studentservices.ncnm.edu/trimet-bus-passes/
What if the NCNM students need to go east?
Those students probably would not use buses that travel on Harrison Street, and are therefore not relevant to the discussion.
Now are you suggesting that every point in Portland must be directly served with buses that serve every other direct point?
I am not at all.
In other words, once again you are making a ass out of yourself
My thought was incorrect and I acknowledged it. But it is true that a Naito routing provides a faster entrance to downtown and shorter walks to places east of 6th Avenue.
And why were the buses routed off of Harrison?
Are you sure that happened? For example, these maps from ~1997 shows Lines 40 and 43 on Harrison (Montgomery, of course, was removed between 5th and 6th)
http://web.archive.org/web/19970717093501/http://www.trimet.org/schedule/r040.gif
http://web.archive.org/web/19970717094034/http://www.trimet.org/schedule/r043.gif
you seem to find it OK for TriMet to have non-compliant bus stops
No, I believe that good pedestrian infrastructure (sidewalks, safe crossings, etc) serve as the base of highly-accessible stops, as a developed stop with a landing pad, etc is not useful if one can't get to/from it. That those things are needed regardless of transit and are out of TriMet's jurisdiction.
But it seems that TriMet is trying to do something about it:
http://trimet.org/projects/pednetwork/index.htm
MAX/WES stops themselves, on the other hand, are in TriMet's right of way, receive outside funding for construction and are built as part of the larger project.
Lastly, while MAX/WES stops may be more accessible, there are a lot less of them per route mile.
Lastly,
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